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Forum:Videos: The Return
Evening folks! Right now Wikia (Fandom) is in the process of modernizing for the current age, and while that is going on I want to reopen the discussion of using videos on the wiki. While adding videos might seem to create a lot more work, it really does not and I think it will benefit the community in the long run. Below I will compile a list of benefits of adding videos to the wiki. *First off, we would only be allowing official content from Funimation and use the videos found in Fandom's video library http://video.wikia.com/wiki/Video_Wiki (Wikia has an agreement with Crunchroll so we get all this for free) We would only use full episodes and anime openings in the article pages and maybe sometimes blogs. Having full episodes on the wiki will give fans another incentive to visit the wiki and may result in new editors. Also, we would be cutting down on the number of links to sketchy/virus anime sites in Discussions/Discord *Wiki videos will be used to reduce the number of ads on the site and improve the performance of the wiki. Keep in mind folks, not everyone uses an ad blocker and having less ads and more videos with actual content related to the wiki is much better. *Staff has offered to create exclusive content for the wiki in the future, so we have more to show to site visitors and potentially draw traffic. Some more information here http://community.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:Brandon_Rhea/Wiki_Video_Types_and_How_You_Can_Create_Them *We have a lot of stubs on episode pages. Having the videos right there on the article page will encourage users to actually destub those articles since they don't have to be burdened with seeking out the episode as well when trying to write the summary. It would be right there on the page. I know there might be a concern that new users might upload random videos or videos that are not official content. We can probably control and put restrictions on who can upload what and just like images, they can easily be deleted if need be. Videos may be region locked and load times might increase (although since chapter stubs are relatively empty to begin with, that shouldn't be too much of a problem for now) If you have any suggestions or solutions to address the above paragraph or if you have any other concerns, then by all means go for it 17:50, May 3, 2017 (UTC) Discussion Additional information from Springteufel Hey straw hat pirates! Really cool to see that you are discussing modernization changes. Maybe I can clarify a few points a little bit: *The videos will be placed by fandom staff, so you don't need to worry about extra work -- we handle that *The videos will be produced by fandom staff or high quality videos from other publishers. So we don't need to use existing videos here in the wiki. *We broaden the amount of wiki videos constantly, that means that we start with a few communities and also mostly pick just a few very popular pages that have a lot of traffic. So we won't place videos on stub articles. *The videos will be around 2-6 minutes in its length so they can provide an informative but quick overview of the topci *Adding full episodes sounds like a great idea that we can't promise to to but I will take this idea to the Modernization Team. Overall we are more looking for character videos, top5/10 videos, Trailer Analyses or other formats you can find here in this blog post listed up. You find more information about wiki Modernization here in this blog post. I hope that helped a little bit. Do you have further questions? I am happy to answer them :) Thanks! Springteufel (talk) 14:10, May 10, 2017 (UTC) I have a question about this line: Wikia has an agreement with Crunchroll so we get all this for free) We would only use full episodes and anime openings in the article pages and maybe sometimes blogs. So, is Crunchyroll the only site we should use to download and upload videos? I believe you have to pay to view all the contents here. Also, won't uploading a 23-24 minute video take too long? Plus considering that One Piece has over 750+ episodes and 5+ movies.Which leads to another question, are we also going to upload OP movies? Also, are the vids going to be subbed only or will there be a dubbed version of it? Because I know some people like watching dubbed anime more than subbed. Are we going to delete the "Long Summary" whatchama-call-it so that viewers would not be spoiled? So far, that's all the questions I could think of... 19:05, May 3, 2017 (UTC) ::Hey Upcear! There is no agreement with Crunchyroll about placing their videos as wiki videos on article pages, so unfortunately not tell you more at this moment. We do and will work together with publishers on videos and will also place trailers or character videos from publishers on articles. And yes, I agree, over 20 minutes can be quite long -- we aim mostly for 3-6 minutes videos. I hope that helped :) Springteufel (talk) 13:06, May 11, 2017 (UTC) I 100% agree that we should add episodes, especially if Fandom now has a Crunchyroll partnership. This would be fantastic for our episode stub problem (and you all know that stubs are my biggest concern). As for your concerns Upcear, because the videos are already on Video Wiki, I don't think we'll have to reupload them. Also, they will all be free because of the Crunchyroll partnership. I would strongly advise against eliminating the Long Summary section, and we don't believe in spoilers on this wiki (like most other wikis). If people come here, they are personally liable to be spoiled. As for subbed vs. dubbed, that just depends on what Crunchyroll has to offer. I do see potential problems that we will need to solve before we make a decision to add video. Namely, can we lock video uploads to be admin, mod, and rollback only? We need to prevent any old Joe or Jane from putting their favorite fan theory video on here, and I don't want to leave the risk open for vandal porn uploads. Otherwise, I think this is a good idea and a positive point of growth for the wiki. 19:32, May 3, 2017 (UTC) Ah I see. Well then, if that's the case then I'm all for it. Just a suggestion but I noticed that OP has a "Featured Article" each week, and I was hoping we'll also have like a featured episode or something like that on the main page to let people know that we do have those episodes here. If this is a go and after we do finish uploading all the videos. 19:44, May 3, 2017 (UTC) Just to be clear, people won't upload any video. The video are on w:c:video and we simply embed here the ones we choose. A file page will be created here too, but the video won't be here. :Here is an example http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/User:JustSomeDude.../Episode_674_With_Video 20:26, May 3, 2017 (UTC) Not again. We should not bloat articles with videos and full episodes do not belong in an encyclopedia. They're all region-locked anyway. 20:59, May 3, 2017 (UTC) Link or not, the animation, the music, pretty much everything is a violation and they shouldn't be on youtube to began with. Unless its an official upload by the dubber or the japanese animators, there is no call to add these to the wikia what so ever. And even then, its not a certainty, unofficial youtube uploads get pulled randomly without wrning... Thats is not to say the official can do the same either. Also... Speaking from long term experience videos are constantly being pulled up ever X aount of length of time. And it will keep doing so until the people who want videos on the wikia get their way I feel. There are times when a wikia an get away with videos and there are times there are not. I can see videos like demos for the video games, dubs by an official company going on here, but beyond that... You are just going to open the gate for editing troubles you don't want. Every wikia i've seen this same situation has the same problem and the videos are constantly having to be relinked. While I advise against it, there is only one reason why; quite frankly... There really are better things you can do with your editing time and the images are enough already to support things so "why bother?" anyway. And this is me talking with experience under my belt since 2002 videos add almost nothing to a page and often become "for the sake of it". At the same time, it can be a little hypocritical as the wikias may restrict image use and then link to a video anyway. To me... Its the fact this comes up time and time again that makes me go against it. It just feels too much like "vote until I get things MY way", which can happen too often on a wikia. On the one hand, you my need a updated poll every so often to rethink a old concept or idea... On the other... It can be just one or two editors not taking "no" for an answer. They often get their own way in the end because everyone either gives up or the crowd is different and have no history of whats gone down in the past. But hey... I'm just one of the old founders here... Aside from putting out reminders that nothing has really changed much since 2003... I don't think there is much more to add here. video linking of any form can be a minefield, and its problematic enough at the Vocaloid wikia which I'm a regular at. So to me, videos ultimately end up being more trouble then their worth even when they can go on a wikia. *le sigh* One-Winged Hawk (talk) 21:04, May 3, 2017 (UTC) :As Levi pointed out we won't be uploading anything after all, we're just embedding links that already exist thanks to Wikia's library. All the videos on Wikia's library is official/legal thanks to a partnership with Crunchyroll. So there is no uploading random videos or getting content from Youtube 21:10, May 3, 2017 (UTC) ::Aware they are just embedded. It changes nothing, I just wrote "linked" instead. it changes nothing I've said in my response. Partnership or not, videos aren't as useful as people think unless they are instructional/demostrations. And an you still would have the same situation of explaining away justification of an entire episode when images are resticted. One-Winged Hawk (talk) 21:57, May 3, 2017 (UTC) According to the rules issues settled with a poll can't be rediscussed normally unless a substantial change takes place. Well offering exclusive content and reducing obtrusive ads is a big enough change, therefore I support as well for adding videos. No harm in it Godess of Time Dimaria (talk) 21:26, May 3, 2017 (UTC) I support adding the official episode videos. I really like Levi's old idea of making them collapsible, to avoid the relevancy issue caused by regional locking. You could also have a identifying class on the page to let people with a mislike of the videos hide them. I'm fairly certain opting for the new custom video thing will mean that your wiki will have locally made videos above the articles. I would possibly consent to that when we get to interact with it more elsewhere, but would the wiki do so? -SPD ☎ ' 21:42, May 3, 2017 (UTC) I don't thing this place ought to be filled with videos, maybe a link directory to official websites could do great enough. But, quoting Kage, " They're all region-locked anyway." Pau D. Seven (talk) 22:47, May 3, 2017 (UTC) :An important point about the region locking, the videos can be viewed in foreign countries if you use the Hola Browser, right here: http://hola.org/. It fixes region specificity. Also, we ''are an English wiki. I know that we have a lot of foreign users, but it still makes sense with our primary audience. 23:34, May 3, 2017 (UTC) I still don't get the issue with official videos, they '''are the content we are talking about. The only reason why a normal enciclopedia would not include that is copyright violation, but we have the luxury of being allowed to legitimately post them. People come here to know about One Piece, and the best way to know about it it's the source material. The region lock is irrelevant, this is the English wiki. Saying the region lock is an issue is the same as saying the fact we use English is a problem for international viewers, plus there are ways to bypass the region lock. Visually, they look like normal thumbnails, so if an image is fine what kind of issue would a video bring in exactly? We are not talking about annoying popups or autoplay videos. Let's not even call them videos, let's call them files. We are talking here about adding like a single file at best per episode page. Adding tons of pirated pictures is not a problem, but adding a single, legitimate, video is? Why? Just think that you will actually support the franchise that way. "The region lock is irrelevant, this is the English wiki". But they're not even available in the UK... English is a global lingua franca and the official language of many countries. So claiming this the same thing as using English is completely wrong. 00:12, May 4, 2017 (UTC) :You're right, I apologize. My language was not appropriate. I would still recommend the Hola Browser, which would allow anyone to watch the videos. 01:45, May 4, 2017 (UTC) But the worst case scenario is that the video is locked and so what? It will simply be a thunbnail on the page. What's the big deal? Yes, it's true that my comparison with English is not exactly true, but my point is that adding videos that at least US viewers can see is perfectly in line with the target audience of this wiki. If we were talking about adding the Brazilian version it would have been out of place for obvious reasons, but we are basically saying that because Brazilian viewers cannot see them, then we should not add it. Why? This won't change in any way the international service this wiki has and for people who cannot see the videos it won't change anything because they still can access everything else. It's not like we are restricting the wiki to US users after all. If we are that worried about international users, then why do we keep VIZ stuff? Non-EN people don't care about that. I should also remind you that, as you can probably tell, I'm not from USA, so I fall in that "international audience" who will see the video region locked but I still support them. I appreciate your concerns about non-EN users, but to be honest I rather prefer people of my language to visit their localized wiki then coming here. If people won't see a point in contributing on the wiki in their language then it will actually hurt the growth of other languages. I also should pointing out that ads are not region locked or, rather, everybody sees the same number of ads (since ads are tailored for the viewers). Therefore even if I cannot see the videos, at least everyone will see less ads. As admin on another wiki (AoT) where we also make use of the Crunchyroll + Wikia agreement, I'd recommend adding the episodes here as well. Actually, for a long time I wondered why I couldn't find the episodes on this wiki when I've been watching them on Video Wiki since forever. After each episode release, I'd come here to read the summary and then go to Video Wiki to watch the episode when I could have been doing both things in the same place. For the case of One Piece is even better as the episodes are uploaded the same day of the release; contrary to our case where we have them a week later. It's true that the videos are regionally restricted and have ads, but still is a plus. You have basically nothing to lose and you'd be adding a nice feature for at least the main target of your fanbase to enjoy. The One Piece episodes also seem to be available on a wider number of countries, as I live in Mexico and I don't have to use any proxy to watch them (contrary to the AoT episodes). If you don't want to affect the load time of the page (although it shouldn't make much difference), a possible option could be to embed them in separate tabs. I'm sure this feature could attract more visitors —and potential editors— to the wiki; especially if you get the most out of them, like promoting them on the social networks or organizing community viewing events in your Discord server, for example. As for the Wikia video ads, which is a completely different thing, my opinion is the opposite. They have recently begun to be implemented on some pages on our wiki, and these videos are big and intrusive, taking a lot of space at the top of the articles. To make them even worse, in most cases they have inaccuracies, they aren't hidden by ad blockers, and since they're technically ads we aren't allowed to touch them due to Wikia customization policies. Since they're part of the Wiki Modernization project, they'll probably be implemented here anyway whether you want it or not, so I'd suggest to at least collaborate with Wikia when the moment arrives in making or at least reviewing the scripts of the videos to make sure that they don't have inaccuracies or go against your wiki policies and standards.--Manuel de la Fuente (talk) 03:59, May 5, 2017 (UTC) ^This guy summed it up nicely and as a Canadian I don't have trouble seeing the videos either. Just because you may not be able to see it doesn't mean everyone else should be barred from seeing it as well. The target audience of this wiki are Americans after all hence which is why the manual of style uses American English over British English, not to mention Wikia is an American company to begin with HiddenAssassinxxXX (talk) 18:23, May 5, 2017 (UTC) Target audience may be North Americans, but quite a lot of them aren't. Anything region locked makes the whole thing pointless for a wide range of visitors. 16:39, May 8, 2017 (UTC) It's irrelevant for them which make the argument "since it's pointless to the minor target audience, then let's not add the videos even though they will benefit the main target audience" more absurd. It's like saying "you should not get a cookie because I won't have one". Why? I won't have a cookie regardless. I can't think of any harm of adding videos, but I'm not so sure about this. Have ppl asked for this? Do ppl look up wikis for anime... For me there are so many pages that have anime but at the same time it's something that could be tested. I was reading some comments and it seems not everyone will be able to watch the videos, it will be more likely US, and just by a feeling most of our users are not from that area. So idk a bit mixed.-- 17:41,5/8/2017 17:41, May 8, 2017 (UTC) Might be good to know that in the end, we might have video's forced down our throat by Wikia whether we like it or not with the new Modernization project. Therefore we'll need to discuss how we want to deal with those, but that's something for a different forum. About the episodes? I say just do it. If it all goes flop, we'll just discuss it again. That said, attractiveness to North American viewers is something I find highly worthy. We could always use more proficiently English speaking users. 18:11, May 8, 2017 (UTC) ^What he said. Also Attack on Titan Wiki implemented the concept quite well. That's also a popular series with a wide international audience. Take note of the tabber they use http://attackontitan.wikia.com/wiki/Beast_Titan_(Episode) 18:19, May 8, 2017 (UTC) The videos about the wiki modernization project are outside the content and are managed by Fandom, you can think them as giant spotlights made by them. The videos we are talking about here are simple files managed by us (beside the video itself, which is hosted by an external source) which we will add inside the content. One other thing to consider is that Muricans who watch the episodes on here will use the Funimation standard of names. This might cause some problems in the future. Any thoughts? 21:46, May 9, 2017 (UTC) If it's like AoT wiki where the video is on a subpage, then I have less issue with it. Still not supporting full episodes on an encyclopedia though. AoD brings up a good point as well. One of the pros was that videos may help people destub episode pages, but they might use Funi's names/translations (e.g. "Navy") while doing so and assume we're considering Funi a primary source when it comes to that. 23:42, May 9, 2017 (UTC) If we have full episodes, a subpage is necessary. If it is stuff like the Modernization videos Superteufel mentioned, definitely not. I don't want a bunch of short videos filling up our pages. Thank you for the information, but I would be against adding clutter. As for AoD's point, I had not thought of that, and that is a big negative. I'm sure we have enough people to combat the vandalism that it would bring, but I'm sure a ton of talk pages would be opened again. We could institute a policy against page names being Funimation translations, and we could communicate this as one of the major rules to new users through our mentorship program. It could mean a lot of discussions and vandalism, but page destubbing would still be easier. I am still for full episodes, but we will need to be watchful and careful with our new editors. 16:24, May 10, 2017 (UTC) :There's a simple solution to the name variant issue. Just add a disclaimer and a link to the http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Name_Variants page on the stub template http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Stub 17:54, May 10, 2017 (UTC) What's the difference between US users watching the episode here end then edit and US users watching the episode on funimation/any other streaming websites and then coming here exactly? Because I don't see it, tbh. Actually, the biggest difference is probably "US users watching the episode on funimation/any other streaming websites and then NOT coming here". I mean, we are discussing a way to involve more people in our wiki and then you are all sudden hesitant to host exclusive content granted just for us that the readers are looking for. I like the idea of having a disclaimer that both explains the vid is region-locked and deals with the name-variant issue. Another thing: do we want to hide the vid somewhere on the page itself or create a subtab for the video to be put on (like here). Myself, I would support the idea of a tab. We'll have dealt with the "longer loading time" issue that way. One last thing: this is probably gonna end up in another poll soon. Any other thoughts? 21:36, May 10, 2017 (UTC) It's probably best to discuss the design choice separately. We could also make different test examples and try them out a few days, before choosing one. Well, Fandom staff member Springteufel just stated above that there is no agreement with Crunchyroll about placing the full episodes on the Wiki. So I guess this forum is finished. Maybe double-check next time? 13:40, May 11, 2017 (UTC) There's no agreement between Crunchyroll for Modernization. The full episodes on Wikia's are provided by Crunchyroll. The two topics got mixed. Forum still good Godess of Time Dimaria (talk) 14:10, May 11, 2017 (UTC) :For clarification 14:17, May 11, 2017 (UTC) So let's clarify this right down to the bare bones. If we put videos on the wiki, what sort of videos will these be, and where will they be sourced from? 14:22, May 11, 2017 (UTC) :They will be full episodes, available only in certain parts (I think only North America). These video's are already uploaded, we just link to them. There will be more video's (character vids, top 5 stuff, trailer analysis etc) provided by Wikia, but that's their project and we have little input in that. This discussion is about the episodes only. 14:37, May 11, 2017 (UTC) If the videos are provided by Crunchyroll, I am sure we can still use them. But let's stop talking about the Modernization. Most of us don't like it, but we'll be forced to do it eventually. I still support Crunchyroll videos, but we need a poll. 19:56, May 11, 2017 (UTC) What about film trailers? Should we add/discuss them too? :Let's focus on episodes first 23:07, May 12, 2017 (UTC) I wanted to respond to some comments from the poll: * @Supernova: the "we don't get a choice" applies to not the videos from video library. * @Angel: "Can cause other issues some are not taking into account here like there then having to be some hundreds or url links to monitor in cause C.Roll takes them down." - maybe you didn't get that we are not ripping off Crunchy Roll/whatever site, they are the ones allowing Fandom to host the videos. There is a partnership here. And even, say, that Crunchy Roll suddenly disappear off the internet, it's not our problem to fix the videos, but Fandom's. There is literally zero responsibilities on our side. I think you keep getting confused with hosting illegitimately videos on our own with this official videos, because the video wiki wasn't even founded in 2004 so there wasn't any kind of video legitimately available. Poll Discussion Any changes/objections, please state below. 23:07, May 12, 2017 (UTC) I think you should add a note like (how - to be decided). :If the vote goes to having episodes on articles, we will then have to discuss how to implement it, so I'm agreeing with Levi here. Other than that a simple yes/no seems best. : 11:52, May 13, 2017 (UTC) Poll 15:39, May 14, 2017 (UTC) # 15:53, May 14, 2017 (UTC) # - original legal content, exclusive opportunity, not much difference then adding another image. # 16:41, May 14, 2017 (UTC) As long as we safeguard against Funimation name discussions and vandalism, I think it will be a wonderful way to fix page stubs. #Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 17:47, May 14, 2017 (UTC) # 13:27, May 16, 2017 (UTC) # 18:31, May 17, 2017 (UTC) #Joekido (talk) 01:08, May 18, 2017 (UTC) ;No, the videos should not be implemented into episode articles. # 16:03, May 14, 2017 (UTC) # 16:39, May 16, 2017 (UTC) Even though this isn't actually voting against having videos, since we don't get a choice. #Weren't a good idea in 2004, not a good idea now. Legit source or not, the wikia has no control over a video off site. Can cause other issues some are not taking into account here like there then having to be some hundreds or url links to monitor in cause C.Roll takes them down. not worth the hassle and why we never went for this in 2004. :-/ One-Winged Hawk (talk) 23:03, May 17, 2017 (UTC) # }} Post Poll Discussion The results are in and full episodes will now be added to episode articles. Now we just need to discuss actual implementation. The best way in my opinion is to use tabbers on the article page like AoT wiki http://attackontitan.wikia.com/wiki/Beast_Titan_(Episode) This way it's easier for people to spot and it doesn't impact the loading time as much. Reminder that all the videos will come from this page http://video.wikia.com/wiki/Category:One_Piece?sort=recentedits&display=exhibition Also the stub template will need to be updated to account for name variations 12:26, May 28, 2017 (UTC) Tabs work, but they are not really the best for mobile though, and there is no issue with loading times since videos are not played until you click play. Tabs. 13:50, May 28, 2017 (UTC) I don't see the problem with mobile and tabs; at least on the AoT wiki our tabs work perfectly on mobile, just that they turn into links and are moved below the infobox rather than being at the top (which can't be controlled since the mobile skin always places the infobox atop everything else). It also allows you to include the videos on their own category, at full size without taking space on the page, and users don't need to scroll down through the entire summary (with the risk of getting spoiled) in order to watch the episode. And I simply like how they look; but of course that depends on each person's own opinion.--Manuel de la Fuente (talk) 14:33, May 29, 2017 (UTC) Yeah, the tabs are an elegant solution. • speedy • ��︎ • • 14:47, May 29, 2017 (UTC) Tabs like the other wiki Godess of Time Dimaria (talk) 14:56, May 29, 2017 (UTC) I didn't say they don't work on mobile, just they are not the best since two plain links are easily missed. I'm fine with tabs, maybe I'll try to update our current tabs to make them more noticeable on mobile (this is also a problem for normal page tabs). Tabs are great. I fully support tabs. 21:09, May 30, 2017 (UTC)